Dr. Rehman Abdulrehman: Developing Anti-Racist Cultural Competence

We welcome back Dr. Rehman Abdulrehman to discuss his new book "Developing Anti-Racist Cultural Competence." In this episode, he breaks down how traditional approaches to cultural competence often centre whiteness and view other cultures through a colonial lens. Instead, he offers a transformative framework that begins with self-reflection about our own biases.

We're talking:

• Why traditional cultural competence models can perpetuate racism by viewing other cultures as exotic or "other"

• How anti-racist cultural competence starts with examining our own biases and recognizing our role in the same "fishbowl"

• The concept of "politicized identities" and how human rights issues are often mislabeled as political issues

• Why the "celebrate everything" initiative could help redefine community and shift cultural perceptions

• How cognitive flexibility and building social connections contribute to psychological resilience
  

Dr. Abdulrehman reminds us that this work isn't just for white people – it's for everyone. He challenges the common excuse "I'm not racist, but..." by explaining how claiming to be "colorblind" actually erases and ignores the real harm experienced by racialized people.

Whether you're a leader looking to implement meaningful change in your organization or an individual seeking to better understand anti-racism, this conversation offers practical insights on moving from awareness to action right here in Winnipeg.

Find out more:

Read "Developing Anti-Racist Cultural Competence"

Test your own bias with Bias Outside the Box

Learn more about the "Celebrate Everything" initiative Episode Transcript

Stuart Murray 00:00

This podcast was recorded on the ancestral lands, on treaty one territory, the traditional territory of the Anishinaabe Cree Oji Cree Dakota and the Dene peoples, and on the homeland of the Metis nation.

Amanda Logan (Voiceover) 00:19

This is humans on rights, a podcast advocating for the education of human rights. Here's your host, Stuart Murray,

Stuart Murray 00:30

it's always interesting for me to have a guest on humans on rights for a second time, and today is no exception. I'm thrilled and delighted that Dr Raymond Abdul Ramon is going to join me in a conversation about something that is very relevant and very poignant in today's world, and that is a book he has written called Developing anti racist cultural competence. I spoke offline just before we started this conversation, to say, you know, the book is full of great information and a lot of definitions that I'd like to explore, Raymond with you, because you have an eloquent way of explaining things. And I think for people who are listening to this podcast, they're going to get a lot out of out of what, what made you write this book, and what we can sort of take out of it? So in a very small way, because I've introduced you in episode 72 and I would advise anybody that hasn't listened to Episode 72 on humans and rights, go back and listen. But I'm thrilled and delighted, Ramon, to welcome you to humans on rights for a second time. Thanks for having me so Raymond, developing anti racist cultural competence is the name of the book. What got you interested in writing this book? I think a lot of times people say, Why did you write a book? So let me just ask you that right off the top, why the book?

Dr. Abdulrehman 01:55

Well, I mean, I actually never thought I would write a book, and early on in my career, one of my mentor and a colleague who I respect a great deal, said to me, you need to write a book. And I said, I'm not going to write a book. And part of that was, I think, my own fears that writing this kind of work comes with its challenges, right? Like what most people don't recognize is that despite being an expert in anti racism as a professional we face racism and those challenges in the professional world. And you know, the stuff I talk about is not something that a lot of people want to hear about or feel comfortable addressing. And so part of it was that, and part of was that, like, it's a lot of effort in and I just wasn't sure if I had it in me, frankly, but it was a colleague of mine who had worked with for many years, who was actually the editor for the series that I wrote the book on, who just you know, has followed my work. He's like, I think it's time for the book. And the fact that it was like, the series is actually something meant for the clinical section for APA, the American psych Association. It wasn't something I could turn down. This is a gentleman I respected a great deal, and so that's really what pushed me into writing the book. But it is. It has turned into a real like opportunity for me to kind of to discuss these really challenging ways, in a way that it becomes instructive, or it becomes a guide for people to address these really challenging topics. So

Stuart Murray 03:22

one of the challenges would be, you know, how do you look at your personal and professional background? How would you say that they helped you shape what this the content of your book is, Raymond,

Dr. Abdulrehman 03:36

yeah, and the book actually has a lot of personal anecdotes. And one of the things that I've often taken some opposition to is that we often address these really important human issues without addressing lived experience. I do think the clinical knowledge and research is all critically important to addressing any field, but when it comes to issues of racism in particular, we can't remove this human experience. You know that our lived experience were equally as important. When I first was working in this field, it really used to bother me that, for cultural competence, people address me as the person of color to address this, and what about some random white guy to do this? I was like, I was behooved at the idea that it would just come to me. But over time, I got to tell you that I began to recognize the value of the lived experience. And I would say, really, the people who should be in these positions of leadership, not me particularly, but are people with that lived experience, because that lived experience really allows us to understand the nuances of something that we can't just get from reading a book, and it's why in this book, I give a lot of really personal examples. You know that that can help demonstrate what is otherwise a theoretical concept and make it feel I think stories and experiences allow us to take a metaphorical concept and make it feel like we're more. Adjacent to it, to feel the emotion that comes with it. And that's why I think lived experience is equally as important as academic knowledge.

Stuart Murray 05:07

And I think that you do that extremely well in both the conversations you have and in the way that you presented it in your book. I think that when I went through the some of the topics in your book, and there were issues there where you talked about anti racist cultural competence. I mean, that's almost to in many ways, when I say a new concept, I don't mean new in the sense that it's never existed before. But again, what I want to say to you is that you've been able to put it together. And I just wondered if you could, in your way, Raymond, define anti racist cultural competence. And how does that differ, say, from say, traditional cultural competence? Yeah,

Dr. Abdulrehman 05:47

well, I mean this on this concept of being culturally competent has been around for a very long time when they asked me write this book. I'm like, I can't write this book like it has to be anti racist. Cultural Competence just ended up being the title too. I said, because many models of cultural competence really approach the idea of getting to know, quote, unquote, the other from a perspective that centers ourselves. You know, it's like this anthropological exercise of reading a National Geographic magazine. You know, where we become the colonial hunters in the jungle, and we're here searching about, you know, these exotic, you know, cultures and people and models of cultural competence that I outline in the book really perpetuate that myth, you know, that centers whiteness, that centers, you know, a Eurocentric perspective, and everyone else is, you know, a part of this cultural Zoo. And we've had cultural zoos in human history, you know. And when we approach cultural competence from this perspective that we are looking into a glass bowl, you know, a fish, not recognizing that we are fish ourselves, that we are a part of the equation, that's a racist thing to do, because it centers us as having more superiority and not recognizing our role in influencing culture. I talk about culture as something that's not static, but it's fluid. It's intersectional. It's always changing. It's impacted by time, by politics we've over the past. You know, a year and a half have seen a huge shift in Western culture because of what's happening globally, what's happening politically. You know, people are becoming more aware, and that's a good thing, that we're becoming more aware, so culture shifts. And so to be truly anti racist, we have to approach cultural competence from this perspective that we cannot just look at the other. We must begin by first looking at ourselves, how is it that we see the world? How is it that we see people that we perceive to be different from us? That is a question we must begin with. You know, what are the biases that we hold? Once we recognize what we hold, then we can allow ourselves to properly, you know, accurately, examine the people that we see is different from us, but then also recognize the common footing that we recognize we are in the same fish bowl, you know, versus like I'm gonna observe you from far away, like you're a science experiment. And that's the concept of anti racist cultural competence, is that we recognize our role, you know, and how we see other people and our biases in impacting the behavior of other people.

Stuart Murray 08:25

I think the way you put that is eloquent, intelligent and so correct, Raymond, but if you look at what's happening in the world today for let's take a moment in time where, you know, we all witness this horrific murder of George Floyd public, it was recorded. Everybody saw it. There's outrage. I mean, it was if you know it hadn't happened before. Of course, we know it's gone on for decades and decades in terms of how black Americans have lived their lives. And we look at what is happening in the political world today, where there seems to be this notion that there's going to be this push back against dei in the workplace, and you see some of these corporations in the United States who, at one point embraced it, and now all of a sudden find it, whether it's convenient or whether it's just spineless, or whatever it may be, you know, to sort of say, well, you know, we're going to change our focus on that. From your perspective, Raymond, how would you say to somebody, Sam, the president of, CEO of a corporation, and I've asked you to come in and we're having this conversation, and I say, you know, we embraced dei a number of years ago, but we're now going to change our focus on it completely, because we're just not sure that it's working. How do you respond to that kind of I don't want to say change of public opinion, but it's certainly very much part of more the conversation on a daily basis.

Dr. Abdulrehman 09:45

Let's go back to that fish bowl metaphor. You know, I think that racism and white supremacy, usually when I say that people thinking of burning crosses in the KKK, we don't recognize that we have inherited these beliefs of racism. Um, where white people are seen as more superior than others. And I would say that racialized people believe that too. We've inherited that. That's a cognitive legacy that we have. Let's apply that back to this fishable metaphor where, if we believe that we can engage in flagrant disregard to the rights of people across the world, you know, whether it's black people in Canada and the US, whether it's Palestinians in occupied Palestine, whether it's what's happening in Sudan. If we believe that we can engage in that and label people, you know, from this old world view of cultural competence, and we think that's not going to have a backlash on us when we're in the same damn fish bowl. We've got another thing coming now that just doesn't apply societally. I mean, you know, sadly, a lot of people are thinking about the bottom line of finances. It will impact you. And the research does show that actually, when we are more inclusive, when we move towards equity, we have far greater economic output, not just as companies, but as countries. So there is that bottom line. The dilemma Stewart is that there's a great sense of hubris. White supremacy comes with a great sense of arrogance. I often will parallel it to a sense of narcissism. If people who are narcissistic tend not to have that awareness that they are disordered in their thinking, you know. And I think that when we approach anti racism, and there are people who just refuse to accept that this is an issue because they can't see beyond their own nose and not recognize you know that this is going to have a backlash on them, and so to me, what I would say to these CEOs and to any leader is that we have to recognize when we work on issues of equity and inclusion for people that we perceive not to be a part of our community, but are that has greater positive outcome for all of us, not just some of us.

Stuart Murray 12:03

It's a big question for sure, Raymond, because your research and what you talk about with respect to colonialism and white supremacy, that has shown that whether it's you know, kind of unlearn history, or whether it's you know, be more open to kind of concepts that you talk about you're looking inside the fish bowl, and you realize you're a fish looking inside the fish bowl. I would sort of just get your wonder what your thoughts are about people that would just say to you, oh, Raymond, I don't see myself as that fish looking into the fish bowl. I see myself as separate. And that may be, you know, you could read into that. Does that mean superior, or does that mean something but something different, you're basically have to say to, or have the conversation with, without, you know, sort of into, some extent offending somebody to say, No, we're all in this same fish bowl, and you are a fish looking into the fish bowl. I mean,

Dr. Abdulrehman 12:57

I think most reasonable people, you know, I often say that my work isn't intended for the KKK, like, I'm not changing the mind of, like, you know, openly racist people who are espousing their superiority. My work is actually done with people who actually could be more dangerous than that. And there's like, who could be more dangerous than people who are openly racist, and I would say people who aren't aware that they are perpetuating racism, that they are well meaning, people who are kind and want to do well in the world, but don't recognize the legacy of racism in our world, and are perpetuating it unknowingly. And I would say that's the majority of us, you know, racialized people included. And if we are able to recognize. And I think most of those people, when faced with this knowledge, you know, aren't going to have the insight to go, oh, you know what? You're right, you're correct. You're pointing towards facts. And I think that's where you see that change, and that's why my work is aimed at those people, because they are the largest majority of people, we can make the biggest change that way, and the fringe will stay the fringe, but then they have less power. The dilemma is that those of us who aren't as aware and are well meaning by are still perpetuating racism. We don't recognize that our lack of awareness is having an impact on voting, having an impact on our society, having an impact on our culture, what holidays we choose to celebrate, who we believe is local, who we believe is foreign, who we believe has the rights and who doesn't. What we believe is a political issue when it's actually a human rights issue. You see, these are all things that we can hide behind and say, Well, I'm not a racist. I'm this is a political issue. No, you know, and I talk about politicized identities in my book, I think most people would have that awareness, you know, if it was pointed out to them. And I think that's why these kinds of podcasts and these kinds of conversations are critically important.

Stuart Murray 14:52

Yeah. Again, would love your advice on being in a room with someone who you know in a typical. Conversation, talking about a number of things, and then they would start the conversation off something like this, well, I'm not a racist, but I just don't think dei is advancing anything in the workplace. I

Dr. Abdulrehman 15:11

will say a lot of people who say that and are really meaning well, really don't understand what that means. You know, they don't see people who claim to be colorblind, and we don't recognize that differences do matter and that differences do have different experiences. And the moment you try to say that there is no difference, you actually remove the experience of harm, and you're ignoring harm. Now a lot of people won't see that, but if we can have people have that conversation, then you know, and shift our culture to to incorporate that into our communal psyche and knowledge, then we can do that. If we did that with COVID, where we knew that we all needed to distance and, you know, we all had to wear a mask. There were people who oppose that, but large majority of us were like, No, this is better for all of us. We're going to do that. And I think that's what needs to happen with anti racist cultural competence, is that it really needs to be integrated into our culture. Okay?

Stuart Murray 16:08

And you know, just some of the things out of your book, Ramon, just want to question you on you emphasize a process oriented approach to cultural competence. And I just wonder, I know that you've written this book for various levels, both educators, people, for practitioners and the general public, but from a practitioner standpoint, what does that look like when you talk about process oriented approach to a cultural competence?

Dr. Abdulrehman 16:32

Sometimes people ask me questions like, I don't remember writing that. I think what you're referring to, from my memory, is that things take time. It's not a transactional thing. It is not a checklist of things that we must do, that learning generally is a process. You know, we learn something. We learn partially through reading, partially through experience, and we as participants, as leaders in community, must engage in that process. We must commit to that process, because changes are going to happen instantly. You know, the people who think di is not an issue in a workplace, the people who think, you know, politics are just politics, learning doesn't happen instantly. The light bulb doesn't happen instantly. And the thing that produces the aha moment for people varies from person to person, but the only way to get to that is to commit to this thing, to say, I'm going to commit to this process of moving towards anti racism. I may not get things right away, I may make mistakes, but I will commit to admitting those mistakes and continuing to learn and have those conversations,

Stuart Murray 17:41

and since you have been involved in your practice and have been involved in the community, you've written a book, how would you observe? Or would you say that you're starting to see some changes. You're starting to see people looking at this from a different lens, a perspective that you didn't see beforehand. Ramon, you

Dr. Abdulrehman 18:01

know, I've always thought that change was, I mean, prior to me doing those right, I think change person to person happens, right? I think us as individual people in society, you know, we meet other people, we have greater proximity to them. And with the world being diverse, that simple proximity allows us as everyday people to make that change. And I think that's the positive. The dilemma is often that we don't apply this into our organizations or into our leadership, and that's where there's a greater sense of belligerence, I think, towards dei that, you know, I will be okay with my neighbor, but I refuse to make a policy. And if I was the mayor of Winnipeg, you know, I accept people and their differences through there, but I refuse to make these holidays for other communities. Stat, holidays. I refuse to make that recommendation. Well, now you see, there's a difference, right? And that's where this pressure to appease, you know, the general white majority, can start to have an impact where we're not implementing what we learn individually into our everyday practice, because that's how we create change, is that we insert this process into the system, and that's where I see the greatest level of belligerence. And sadly, we see some organizations making movement, and I'm happy to have worked with them. But then you also see other people be completely, you know, blase about this, yeah.

Stuart Murray 19:29

And I think one of the biggest challenges is that it doesn't happen with you know, you coming in and sharing your professional your personal life, you know, talking about your book to a group of people, you know, it is a journey. I mean, it's kind of a sense of, you know, really sort of, as you say, the journey has to start from within, as opposed to being always looking outward and seeing what's happening. And it just, if you were to, you know, somebody was listening to this podcast would say, Well, you know, that's an interesting. Comment about it has to start from within. You know, Raymond, what would you say to somebody who asked you that question? How do I start to have this conversation when I have to really start to look within, to allow me then to have, you know, the conversation, whether it's with the other or whatever it may be. So that this conversation starts to become more from a, you know, you talk about a human rights lens, which is what this podcast is all about. That's really the nub, I think, of what I would love to get from you on this Ramon, because it's what you've lived and what you teach. Yeah, well, there's

Dr. Abdulrehman 20:36

two answers, and one's for the everyday person, and one's for leaders. And I think, I think the everyday person, I mean, I would ask both. I asked both of those individuals to take a look at my tool test bias.com it's the bias outside the box tool. It allows you to start to have that conversation with yourself that calls a mirror up to help you recognize if you're carrying biases. So I would start there. But what I would say to both those individuals now, especially to the leaders, is that, yes, this is a journey, but journeys don't have to take forever. We don't have to meander about it. I mean, we've been on this journey as humanity for hundreds of years, and we still haven't resolved it. We cannot afford this to be a slow, meandering journey. What we must recognize is that racism really is a health issue. It does impact the health and well being of both racialized and non racialized people, psychologically and physically, in terms of our health, and the same way that we approach the pandemic of COVID, we really need to be approaching this as an epidemic that's everywhere, and leaders need to really put their money where their mouth is and invest in public health protocols like our team has developed, such as one into processes that help move people along on this journey, fast. Remember, we moved fast on this journey for COVID. We moved quickly because we recognized the urgency. And I would say we moved quickly because it impacted the health of those with the greatest privilege. You know, we notice when the health of black and brown people, we don't move so quick, but the moment the health of white people are impacted, we move quick as we should have moved quick, for example, you know, with our pronouns, when we address gender, you know, we moved quick on that relative to the human rights of black and brown people. But it's also because white people were involved in that minority group. We don't do that for people of color. And so, you know, yes, you know, take a look at your test. Take a look at my test bias.com. Tool, start there. Read my book. Have conversations with people. Review who's in your circle, who's in your friend group? Who do you trust? Who trusts you? You know, it's in my last chapter I talked about outside the therapy room, this work can't be done as just professional work. It has to be personal. There's gotta be that personal commitment, but then it also has to go the other way, especially for leaders, right? We gotta take that personal work and come back and say, Look, how are we gonna apply this with a sense of urgency. And my biggest fear, though, is that our leaders don't see this as an urgency. Now, that's my biggest fear. And

Stuart Murray 23:13

you know, just to put that into perspective, you know, I don't want to put words in your mouth, Ramon, but would you say that's really a reflection that leaders are simply, again, it comes down to sort of, you know, the white colonial, the dominancy that you see in kind of leadership positions. Mean, I, you know, just a quick side issue here. You know, we watched, anybody that was interested in politics, watched a presidential election go down in the United States. I mean, if I had $1 to my name, I think I would have bet on Kamala Harris to win that election. She did not. And of course, when you win something, it's everybody's taking credit. When you don't, you never quite understand what the reasons are. You know from your perspective. And again, this is just you and I in a conversation. Yes, it's a public conversation, Ramon, but would you say that? Well, let me just ask, would you say that the color of Kamala Harris's skin had an indication on why she was not successful? Yeah, that's

Dr. Abdulrehman 24:08

an interesting question. I'm going to say something really controversial. I don't think that that was the key issue. And I think it brings up the secondary issue of how people of color can engage in racism and promote white supremacy. I talk about this in my book. Sometimes the people who are upholding white supremacy are other people of color, and I think it's easy. I don't like Trump, don't get me wrong. I'll go on record in this public conversation, and no fan of Trump. I'll make that very clear. I would not voted for him myself at all. But I think that, frankly, often we believe that just because, if there's a person who's racialized, that they're automatically going to do the right thing towards other people of color. And Kamala Harris had a record of not being so great towards other people of color, including in her role as the Vice President of the United States, particularly when it came to matters of international issue that particularly favored. White people over black and brown people in particular regions of the world. And if you were asked my assessment of it, I think that there was a lot of people of color who were very hurt that there were people who were taking to the streets who were saying, please stop this. You have the ability to stop this. Please stop funding genocide, you know. And that didn't happen. And when that happens, we tend to look at Trump. We didn't look at what led up to that. And it's when people who claim to be on the left didn't do what they were supposed to do, including racialized people. The people who are vetoing votes for ceasefire were other people of color, you know? And this is where we recognize that the work of anti racism doesn't just fall on the shoulders of white people. It falls on all of our shoulders where we really must evaluate our thinking at what allows us to perpetuate, you know, racism and a lack of human rights, and where does that intersect with politics? And I think what happened in the United States, which I think is a reflection of what was happening here in Canada, is really an indication of this work that I talk about, my book.

Stuart Murray 26:04

Yeah, of course, your book is available on amazon.ca, at McNally Robinson, and so we'll make sure that, you know, we put it into the notes Ramon, so that people, if they're not sure. Again, it's called Developing anti racist cultural competence. Raymond, you talked earlier about some of the processes that you and your team have put into place. Is there some concrete steps that you could say to educators or leaders who may be listening to this podcast that they can take to develop this anti racist cultural competence? Yeah,

Dr. Abdulrehman 26:37

and I think there's many things that we can do, you know, education and information, I always encourage organizations to consult internally and externally, make sure that you have a professional guiding that process, and then listen to that, and then you'll also have community and things like that. But one of the things that that our team initially came up with and is now formally with our consulting side, is this idea based on positive psychology, you know, and that's the concept of celebrating everything, if we take a look at our culture. So I'll go take it a step back, data from our test bias tool confirm that, by and large, racialized and non racialized people in Canada and the US believe that white people are local and that people of color, including indigenous people are foreign. And what that does is that it also relates to and it correlates to this view that particular groups of people are seen and the racialized are seen as more likely to challenge western values. And this creates a dynamic that shows that, you know, people of color are seen as a separate community, and those of us from the white community are seen as a separate community. And I think that's really those biases are at the heart of a lot of racism that promotes what I see as this definition of community being a disparate definition. And I think we really need to come back. I think the repairing of our society is being able to see us as belonging to the same community, that a community can be very diverse, that we may not hold the exact same views, celebrate the exact same holidays, but we are still going to see ourselves in the same community. Now, people from cultural minority groups, racialized people, have been doing this white people all the time. You know, I don't celebrate Christmas, but I could tell you without a doubt, every nuanced detail of a holiday celebration for Christmas, the smells, the foods, the greetings, the presents, every single nuance that could not happen the other way around when it came to Ramadan and Eid, right? And so we've got this problem where, you know, people of color see themselves as being close to in a part of a larger community that includes white people, but white people don't see themselves as belonging to that. So this initiative of celebrate everything comes from this perspective of positive psychology that helps us redefine a sense of community. And if we take a look at our holidays in our stat holiday calendar, you can see that we are truly not multicultural. We are unicultural. Those holidays reflect the culture of one group of people, not all groups of Canadians and Americans. And so the recommendation for celebrate everything is to have a list. We have a list of 15 holidays that include Christmas and Easter, and that we acknowledge and celebrate all of those holidays in the same level that we would Christmas. And so we encourage organizations to come on board there. It's a licensed program where they would be a part of this community, where they now must commit to this process of celebrating all these holidays. And in doing so, what happens is we shift our culture. You know, through learning, through celebration, we open doors for conversation, and we view our thinking, to see people from those communities as local by celebrating those holidays as local holidays.

Stuart Murray 29:45

So Raymond, you know, we chatted a bit about this in that episode 72 as I refer to when we talk about how holidays shape and define culture, as you eloquently said. I mean, you could talk about Christmas verbatim, because you. Have been. You experienced it. You understand it. It's part of what is I don't say it's forced upon, but it is there so much. Then you talk about Ramadan as an example from your perspective, how do we start to bring that understanding of that culture in the same way that people of color or different backgrounds, non Christians who understand Christmas, is that something that can happen as an education tool in schools? Or, you know, just looking at and saying, I mean, the fact is, you know, you would be generous enough to invite me to Ramadan. But other than that, you know, it's just not coming up on my calendar. But how do I look at that and say, Wow, was that ever a great opportunity for me to start? I mean, you know, you don't go to one and sort of say, you know, this is amazing, but that's a start. How do you see that happening? Well, and

Dr. Abdulrehman 30:51

this is the difference that we talk about, the difference between the everyday individual on their journey versus a societal change, right? So individually, if we're doing it, it's doing is a one off. You know, those of us who've developed a good relationship that we're inviting each other over being honest about our experiences, but we're not doing it systemically. And this is where we have to approach this issue of inclusion from a public health perspective, you know. So if we want to prevent a waterborne illness, we don't just treat the waterborne illness, we provide clean drinking water, and that's a simple, small intervention that has huge, broad impact. And I would say the same thing happens with these biases to prevent racism and discrimination and all the problems that come with that we must start to celebrate all the holidays. It is a clean drinking water that is now disseminated into a system that every workplace recognize these holidays, that our city would do that, that our province would do that. And now it's not just based on our learning. You might not have ever known me. You might not have ever met a Muslim or an Arab at all, but IKEA is talking about Ramadan, you know, high tea bakery puts out beautiful cookies in the shape of, you know, all sorts of designs that reflect our culture and holidays at that time, and that gets you to ask questions. And so now what is otherwise just been hidden inside of me because of racism I can't talk about it is now everywhere around this and we are all having, metaphorically, that Ramadan dinner together, yeah,

Stuart Murray 32:15

and you know, one of the things that is so challenging that I find when I have guests or advocates or experts like yourself on this podcast, Ramon, is that there's a lot of conversation that comes that I hear from my guests. They're uncomfortable talking about racism and, you know, so then it's just kind of, you know, maybe they excuse themselves from the table and they go to the washroom, anything to kind of just maybe miss that conversation. But that's real, right? I mean, that's real if people are uncomfortable about it. How do we, you know, when I say how? Obviously, the first thing is, if you don't say, Buy my book, you know, you're missing out on a great opening here. But, I mean, you know, in a serious way, Raymond, how do we start to make let's just talk about this in a general way, even it's not about racism. How do you start to make people comfortable who are uncomfortable in any situation?

Dr. Abdulrehman 33:11

Yeah. So as a psychologist, I would say, You know what we know about anxiety, and anxiety can show for all sorts of things. The more we avoid, the worse our anxiety gets. The more we avoid a problem. It doesn't mean the problem is going away. Actually, our fear of it gets worse. We don't develop the tolerance to be able to manage those difficult conversations. We develop the skills to manage those difficult conversations through the process of actually exposure as a psychological term meant to allow people to sit through and habituate to the distress. And the human brain is wonderful at that, but also it's important to remember that if you feel like you can step out of a conversation on racism, then you have the privilege to do so, because there's many of us who don't have the privilege to step away from it, right? And that alone points to that disparity. But I would say that's the beginning ways to and I suggest this in my book, is to start to have that conversation. It's what this book. This book was a part of a series meant for just clinicians, and when I wrote this book and I said, I'm not writing this book just for clinicians, there'll be references for clinicians. But this book is for everybody, because we all really need to develop these skills, and that happens through the sitting, through the challenging and difficult, uncomfortable material.

Stuart Murray 34:21

Yeah. I mean, we have a first nations premier here in Manitoba, which, you know, again, sometimes I step back Ramon, and I think that Winnipeg at Manitoba is sort of interesting. We've had, you know, the first openly gay mayor in Canada. We have the first Premier who is First Nations in Canada. And I guess just stepping back from that, you know, are there certain leaders in our community that you have sent your book to and said, Please read this, and I'd be more than happy to have a coffee with you to discuss it. No,

Dr. Abdulrehman 34:53

but I have met with certain leaders, and I can tell you that people don't like having those i. I've met with our mayor. I'm not sure he was so happy to meet with me. He declined the idea of making the recommendation to the province to celebrate everything. No, I have not, but I have met with leaders and and the dilemma here is that there are some leaders who have made change. I mean, if you take a look at our website for celebrate everything, you'll see this. There's many leaders who have said we are going to put our company on the line and move towards becoming inclusive. So we have wonderful people, but there are also people who are really anxious about this, who don't want to do the right thing, because it leads to maybe upsetting certain groups of people with greater privilege. I will be honest that that is still an issue. Yeah.

Stuart Murray 35:37

I mean, again, you know, you talk about this journey that you know we are as on as kind of the human race, if you will. Raymond, and I guess the hope is, and hope is, you know, sometimes not a great strategy, but, you know, let me just, let me put it out there in the sense of the conversation that we're having, that if there's an organization that embraces this notion of, you know, cultural holidays and recognizing that, you know, we're Canadians, but we have a culture that fits within Canada, that celebrates a different background, or whatever it may be that that's being embraced, you know, if there's one company, maybe then there's a second company, and that second company talks to a third company. And so, you know, it starts to take away some of those things, that anxiety piece that you know, it just slowly starts to go. And I suspect that you're on that journey, Ramon, I suspect you're on that when I say you that you've helped to be a pivot for some of those organizations, because you've been able to bring some clarity to some of their anxiety.

Dr. Abdulrehman 36:35

I think what you're speaking to is, and I have to tell you, I think the only way we move through this is with really good relationships, and building those relationships. And the companies that have signed on for this, the companies I work for, I have good relationships with, but it requires a two way street. It's those relationships that will allow us to really improve the world that we can't do this alone. And I say this, this is not work for just white people to do. You know, this is work for all of us to do, myself included. You know, we're all human beings. We will make error. If we don't recognize the harm our errors do to other people, then we're not helping. We're just not harming other people. We're also harming ourselves. Ramon,

Stuart Murray 37:12

how do you see anti racist cultural competence evolving in the future? That's

Dr. Abdulrehman 37:16

a good question. I would like it. How do I see it? I mean, I'll be honest, I am a pragmatist, and I feel quite disheartened by what I see in the world. You know? I mean, the work I do often leads to personal attacks, sadly, so that does more so over the past, like 15 months since everything that's happened in the Middle East because of my personal identity. But what I hope would happen, and I think this initiative of celebrate everything is really my hope is that we make Winnipeg the example. We move Winnipeg from that moniker of being the most racist city in Canada to being the most an example of how we be the most inclusive, of how we build bridges across community, how we redefine what community is. And I think Winnipeg has that capability, and that's where I see this hope. And I think if we can do that, if we can pull our act together as a city, I think there'll be a snowball effect in a good way.

Stuart Murray 38:09

If you're not optimistic in some of these conversations, you know, it's a challenge, for sure, and the way that you it's, as I said, I was so thrilled and delighted when you agreed to come back on to this podcast, Remon because, you know, I mean your intelligence and your passion for what you're trying to bring forward in a conversation. And I really do value the notion about relationships, because that's really what starts to bring conversation forward. And again, I think sometimes people mistrew The notion of saying relationships mean that we all have to agree on everything. I mean, that's not it at all, right? I mean, you know that absolutely, and as a matter of fact, you know the fact when people don't agree, it tests the relationship and allows it to be stronger?

Dr. Abdulrehman 38:53

Well, it's the conversation at the times of difficulty that matter, right? And our ability to see the perspective of the other person. And if we can do that, then I think we become better people. We're not just helping the other person, we're helping ourselves, right? It produces what is necessary. What I think is really important in psychological resilience is cognitive flexibility, the ability to see things from other perspectives, but also the ability to build social supports. Both of those things are critically important when it comes to mental health and well being. And I think once we recognize that, we recognize the value to ourselves to do this works, not just for the value for others. Have you

Stuart Murray 39:26

Ramon, been approached by other organizations, of cultural organizations, non white, cultural organizations, to, you know, come out and have a conversation with them, so that, because I think one of the things that you're saying, which I find very, very helpful, is when you talk about, it's not just white people that can be a part of this solution. And so how have you found some of those communities or those conversations, you know, with respect to your presentation?

Dr. Abdulrehman 39:53

I mean, I think people are very receptive. I will say, I mean, one of the organizations, I was really proud to partner with them. Many things was folklore, and folklore has really done a beautiful job of pivoting. I mean, one of the things I'd often had to say about focal Rama is that, you know, it was developed a long time ago, this model, and you know, if we approach culture and groups of people, just as, you know, as stereotypes of their versions of who they are versus how they live their lives here, then the festival, in and of itself, by itself, can be problematic. But folklore had asked me to come on. They went in, hook, line and sinker, and they said, You're right, and they've made some wonderful changes that are help promoting this concept, to celebrate everything and approaching what culture looks like here, not just International. And I think that's that's a big shift. So there are organizations folklore, I think would be one of the major cultural organizations that's really moved to this. And I'm just so proud of the work that they're doing, and it's been a pleasure to work with them. So I think there's positive stuff. Yeah,

Stuart Murray 40:51

that's a good one. And I mean, you know, they are that organization really is, to some extent, probably taken a bit for granted, you know, because it happens every year. And you know this I mean, but if you step back and started to look to your point about that is such an opportunity to develop the diversity and celebrate the diversity, I should say, about who we are as Winnipeggers and some of the people that you may look across from a desk that may not look like you, but when you go and you see them in their pavilion, and they're celebrating and they're doing the kinds of things you know, that allows you to really embrace them. And that comes back to your conversation about relationships.

Dr. Abdulrehman 41:31

Yeah, I think it's critically important. Yeah, listen,

Stuart Murray 41:34

Raymond, your book, of course, developing anti racist cultural competence is very much out there for people to want to read. I can't tell you again how much I appreciate you finding time. I know you're busy, so thank you so much for finding time for this conversation. And I guess just before we sign off, I just wanted to say, you know, is there anything that I didn't ask you that you wanted a chance to talk about during this podcast? Um,

Dr. Abdulrehman 41:57

no, I'd like to share that there's a few extra books I have coming out, which I'd encourage people to keep an eye open for. There's three books showing up this year. First one is movies and multiculturalism, and I think it's a nice tool that basically uses television and film to help people understand the concepts of culture and social justice. I did this with two other co authors of mine, and I love this tool. I think it's a wonderful way for people to talk about the really difficult things. I have a fiction, short fiction book based on Zanzibar folklore of the gin, totally out of left field, called gin and the family, that'll be out probably in August or September. And then there is an anthology of poetry specifically for people of color that will be released. It's called the poetry of angry black and brown people that talks about the human experiences of that we have through poetry and prose, and that'll be out closer to the end of the year as well, too.

Stuart Murray 42:45

So from a guy who was reluctant to write a book, you're now becoming a very, very polished, well documented author, Dr Ramon. Abdul Ramon, congratulations on that, and I'll make sure again that those are part of the notes so that people can keep an eye open for them. And I thank you again for taking time continued success in what you do and how you're trying to help all of us just understand that this is a world that we can make so much better through kindness and through relationship. Absolutely.

Dr. Abdulrehman 43:12

Thank you so much for having me and this relationship with me.